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I'm pretty sure we're down to a generic problem that is not specific to my bike.
The power cut out today. Gave me that feeling of dread because I've been battling an electrical problem that I'd been so SURE I had pinned it down to the rectifier. Well, I've replaced the rectifier (thanks Angie) and the problem seems to have gone away.
When the bike died today I was just in the process of pulling up to a stoplight behind some cars. The neutral indicator even went dead. The whole electrical seemed to go dead. Fearing I had not fixed the previous problem, I pulled out any bulbs that might blow and got ready to bypass the battery for a quick 'emergency ride' home on the charging system alone. Lo and behold, the bike fired right up again after resting a minute or so. Battery still connected.
About a mile down the road I noticed a couple of hickups in the power. Just quick little one-stroke misfires, maybe three of em over the course of a few seconds.
Two more miles and I hit some construction congestion. Soon as I pulled the clutch in, the engine died. I pulled over and as I was coasting in the parking lane I figured 'what the hell' and see if I could pop the clutch and start it up again.
It did start up again. This happened a few more times in the stop-and-go. I was always able to pop-start it off the last rolling momentum of the bike.
I hit a few more red lights coming home after that incident, the bike idled just fine. I may have spotted two or three additional misfires.
MY QUESTION:... this problem seems to have all the symptoms of an electrical short, at least the first manifestation. yeah? I've checked and re-checked all my bullet connectors and made sure there are no weak connections or exposed wire to short against any metal. My final recourse would be to replace the whole harness and I'd really rather not go there just as a 'precautionary' process of eliminaiton, ya know?
But the bike dying under low-rev and being able to pop-start it sounds like a carburetion issue? The plug looks plenty healthy but I'm wondering if the idle circuit is a bit rich?
What do you think?
The power cut out today. Gave me that feeling of dread because I've been battling an electrical problem that I'd been so SURE I had pinned it down to the rectifier. Well, I've replaced the rectifier (thanks Angie) and the problem seems to have gone away.
When the bike died today I was just in the process of pulling up to a stoplight behind some cars. The neutral indicator even went dead. The whole electrical seemed to go dead. Fearing I had not fixed the previous problem, I pulled out any bulbs that might blow and got ready to bypass the battery for a quick 'emergency ride' home on the charging system alone. Lo and behold, the bike fired right up again after resting a minute or so. Battery still connected.
About a mile down the road I noticed a couple of hickups in the power. Just quick little one-stroke misfires, maybe three of em over the course of a few seconds.
Two more miles and I hit some construction congestion. Soon as I pulled the clutch in, the engine died. I pulled over and as I was coasting in the parking lane I figured 'what the hell' and see if I could pop the clutch and start it up again.
It did start up again. This happened a few more times in the stop-and-go. I was always able to pop-start it off the last rolling momentum of the bike.
I hit a few more red lights coming home after that incident, the bike idled just fine. I may have spotted two or three additional misfires.
MY QUESTION:... this problem seems to have all the symptoms of an electrical short, at least the first manifestation. yeah? I've checked and re-checked all my bullet connectors and made sure there are no weak connections or exposed wire to short against any metal. My final recourse would be to replace the whole harness and I'd really rather not go there just as a 'precautionary' process of eliminaiton, ya know?
But the bike dying under low-rev and being able to pop-start it sounds like a carburetion issue? The plug looks plenty healthy but I'm wondering if the idle circuit is a bit rich?
What do you think?
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Thu, May 7, 2009 - 4:48 PMThis is a long shot, but did you try riding with the gas cap open?
A clogged gas cap vent hole would show the same symptoms.
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Thu, May 7, 2009 - 5:22 PMmy guess would be a sticky float or crud in the fuel
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Unsu...
Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Thu, May 7, 2009 - 6:43 PMGood ideas both... although I've *heard* of gas cap venting becoming an issue, I've never experienced it myself.
I just went cowtrailing for about an hour with my wife, so we didn't go fast, under 10 miles an hour. Like taking a walk but you don't have to do any walking haha....
Anyways the bike behaved perfectly well the whole time.
I did suspect a stuck float, as I have to make my own gaskets for this old carb, there are no more kits available. I use bicycle tyre rubber, and I pre-expand it in gasoline before cutting it to size, so that it doesn't expand and wrinkle after installation, causing a leak. It seems to work but I've had expansion problems in the past where it reached in and stuck my float. (by the way if anyone knows of a non-expanding, non corroding gas submersible gasket compound, I'd like to buy you a drink or shake your hand cause I've tried everything and asked everyone.) -at any rate, it's not the float or anything to do with the idle circuit, for sure, or it would have showed up on this evening's ride.
Crap in the gas, I'll check into that and it is possible, considering the ammount of rust in the tank. Original 42 year-old tank and it was clean and shiny as a whistle inside till my little brother left the cap off all winter last year, before I went home and got the bike back. I probably need to cream it, or at least put some nuts and bolts in it and shake it with some chemtool, but I did nothing. I think I shook it and sloshed the old gas around to knock loose things loose before dumping it out, and then it was back to business. I'll check into that theory though.
I'm also still suspicious of an electrical break that may be happening? I've already made some serious modifications to the electrical system. I've been so tired of this weak little 6 volt system. I took a schematic and figured I'd see what I could do to improve it. First thing was wiring up a toggle to the battery, so that I can disconnect the battery and run the spark off the charging system in case I ever get stuck somewhere with a dead battery. (can't jumpstart unless someone happens by with an old british 6 volt car?) Then upon studying the charging circuit I noticed that there is actually an extra phase in the alternator? this extra phase is automatically activated when you turn on the headlight. The headlight switch actually throws two switches at once, down inside the handlebar mounted housing. One for the extra phase, one for the lights. This is the stock system. I suppose this bolsters the charging system to handle the extra load, but decreases the surplus when not needed, to spare the delicate selenium rectifier.
Well now I've replaced the rectifier with some newfangled little thing that is about a hundred times cheaper and at least fifty times more robust. So I took apart the headlight switch and mounted that extra alternator phase switch to a toggle on the headlight cowl. I did this because the charging system is so weak, I often end up with a half dead battery at the end of a night-ride anyhow, and it will really help to run the bike for a short time after the next startup with the bolstered charging, but without the drain of the lights. What do you think?
I'm looking for a cheap small ammeter (largest possible diameter 1.75 inches) so I can more closely monitor, and manually manage my delicate little charging system. I may also install a volt meter but I'm not sure about that one yet.
I've also simplified a few other things to eliminate unecessary burden and draw. I'm tempted to replace all wires with new, thicker wires.
And at the very least, I just might solder all those damn bullet connectors. Maybe that will finally solve this mystery short?
(on another semi-related note, I seem to hit a rev limit before I redline or lean-out, or run out of available power. It seems to be lack of spark that keeps me from reaching that last little bit in the top. this is an 89cc four stroke, my wife and I seem able to get up to 55mph on a long flat, but a more reasonable top speed is about 40. I'm thinking it will do more if only I can reach that last little bit on the rpm and I think part of the key is eliminating electrical waste in the system. The spark quality on this bike is very sensitive to the overall system) -
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Fri, May 8, 2009 - 11:57 AMNaw, it sounds like you're starving out the carb to me. Running slow, you never get the float bowl empty enough to shut down. WHen you run her and it dies, it gives enough time to refill the gas line and bowl till it starts and drains this down.
Do the gas cap off test. If it were me, I'd do this - It's about 2 hours to clear this mess, max. 30 minutes on the short end.
(1) A "filter drain" of the tank - drain the fuel into a GLASS jar, a jar at a time, through a coffee filter - to see if you have (a) dirt, or (b) water coming out of it (Dirt will show on the filter, water in the glass jar). This takes a while, but you then rule out contaminated/bad gas. As the jar fills put it into a gas can, then repeat. I have a quart and a half clean mason jar I use for this (I got it at Starvation Army)...
(2) Pull the tank, and the petcock. Take a cork that fits the petcock hole in the tank, and pour a jar of Kerosene or Paint Thinner into the tank. Shake the shit out of the tank and drain back into the jar like you did the gas through the petcock hole. If there's crap in the bottom of your tank, you'll see it here. DO this until your tank is clean. DO NOT use water as you will not get your tank dry and you will have water in your gas, and DO NOT use gasoline as when you shake it you build up pressurized explosive fumes. Diesel is hard to see the dirt and crap in, but it works.
(3) Clean the petcock screen from the accumulated crap there (there almost always is). If you have an inline filter, REPLACE IT. It's all of a buck 49 at Kragens, you can afford it. And carry a spare.
(4) Make sure the cap vent or tank vent is open - blow through it. If you can't, then it's clogged. Worst case (I did this with a "flip cap" CB450 honda once) you can re-drill a new vent in the cap using a real tiny wire sized drill bit. If air can't get into the tank, the gas can't get out.
Put all this together, but before you put the tank on,
(5) Pop the float bowl on your carb. If there's dirt and crap in there, then you gotta pull the carb, at best you will need to clean it and maybe your jets (delicate job!!) , at worst you're looking at a rebuild. But you GOTTA at least pop the float bowl and check - that's why it's easy to take these off. Really.
Put it back together. Put CLEAN gas (no dirt, no water) into the tank, and check.
IF the problem didn't go away, then it's electrical. Check ALL your connections - and if it's one of those hondas or harleys with their infamous multi plugs (all have them, but for some reason these 2 are notorious for multi-plug problems) make sure they're not corroded or pulled apart or the wires are pulled loose (HD) or corroded or pulled apart (not latched) or melted/melting/burned. (honda). But it sounds like, with it strting and stopping and running at slow (10mph) speed it's fuel, not elect.
Good luck,
SR
draining the tank -
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Fri, May 8, 2009 - 11:59 AMRust in the tank? There's your problem. Should have caught that right off. Yeesh - teach me for skimming stuff.
Pull the tank and clean it as above (or in this case below).
Prolly gonna have to clean the carb too. Prolly an all afternoon job, plus you gotta derust the tank. Have fun.
bbs -
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Unsu...
Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Fri, May 8, 2009 - 6:10 PMI've worked on the carb enough to clean it and tune it in fifteen minutes. I only hesitate because my rigged-up float bowl gasket job is a pain in the ass to replace, and it's not reusable.
I've tried the neoprene cloth gasket stuff. The gas always finds a wicking path through the cloth somewhere and I get a leak. Gas is a real bastard to try and contain, let me tell ya.
Alright guys I'll pull the tank and clean it out. Later. I got sick of dealing with bike problems so today I decided to make a leather tool holder for my front forks with some horsehide I had sitting around. Got all the pieces cut, then ran out of ambition when I got to the stitching part. I guess my half-mexican is the strong side today. Time for a nap hehehe...
I'm also toying with the idea of putting a european-style front fender license plate... you know, the kind that's like a little mohawk on top of the front fender? I think they look cool.
Here's a pic of my bike.... what do you think about a european plate?
people.tribe.net/11c3cf13-...726d63b2d0 -
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Unsu...
Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Fri, May 8, 2009 - 6:21 PMokay I dunno why but that picture seems to have been made into a picasso through the server. Here I reloaded the same one again.
people.tribe.net/11c3cf13-...979f20e895
You wouldn't believe how many people ask me if it's a BSA or Triumph. Including the salesmen at the honda store. There was ONE guy at the honda store who was old enough to have ridden a new one back in the day. He spotted it right off. Everyone else seems to think 'triumph' first and I have no idea why.
Incidentally if you know where I can get some nice round tank emblems, that'd be swell and save me a very repetetive answer to what has become an annoying curbside question. The original emblems were so sun damaged they flaked into slivers of plastic when i went to remove them. I don't know what it is about this bike, but every time i pull up to a curb, if there's someone nearby it usually sparks a conversation... and it's usually the same conversation.
If I could get some emblems that said '67 HONDA in really legible print, well, that'd just about cover it hahaha
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Fri, May 8, 2009 - 12:05 PMThey make a cloth renforced neoprean that you can buy in real auto parts store ( not kreagens) just for card gaskets real thin . -
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Unsu...
Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Tue, May 12, 2009 - 6:47 PMAlright guys I experience the problem under the right conditions, right timing, and while I had the right tools on-hand to diagnose it.
It was a corroded positive lead from the battery to the main fuse. Under some specific RPM vibrations, and with the perfect combination of road bumps, it was apparently just enough to cause a blip in the power, or sometimes a complete shutdown. Usually, by the time I took off the bolted-on battery cover, and wiggled the battery out of it's place, I would have usually inadvertently 'fixed' the fussy corroded wire. As the corrosion is somewhere along the length of the wire, all my previous inspecitonsof connections wasn't helping.
But I got it this time. For sure. Been running fine now for almost a hundred miles, no problems at all.
NOW.... does anybody have a solution for the float-bowl gasket thing? my last bicycle inner-tube gasket was installed about six weeks ago, and it has finally expanded/decomposed enough to start sticking the float open. Usually a few quick up-and-down shakes on the handlebars will set things right again, But something tells me this problem isn't going to up and solve itself. I'm sick of switching out gaskets every month, I need a solution!
Anybody have one? -
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Tue, May 12, 2009 - 10:00 PMWell, there is a variety of gasket forming material available in the auto parts store. Mostly in tubes. Do none of those do the job? What about the neoprene suggested by Jeff? I suppose that a good last resort would be to buy cork board laminate material. Might do the job, depending on what the polymer resin is that holds the laminate together. How about the red-rubber sheets you can get for making plumbing gaskets? -
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Unsu...
Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Wed, May 13, 2009 - 7:50 AMnone of the 'tube' stuff at the auto stores holds up in gasoline submersion. The best you can get is RTV Black, which is oil and petrol resistant, but it even says on the tube 'not for constant submersion in gasoline'
I've tried the neoprene stuff and the gas always seems to find a leak. I dunno if it's finding an un-infused cloth fiber to 'wick' through, or if the neoprene simply isn't pliable enough to mould into all the micro-imperfections in the bowl seat.
I've tried cork, and it was terrible.
Part of the difficulty is that the width of the gasket is only 1/16th of an inch in many places. Anything made of particulates will usually have an imperfection or a gap big enough to span the entire wall of the gasket.
I have even tried some supposedly gas-submersible glues like 'Seal-All' and they seem to last about as long as the bicycle inner-tubes, about six weeks max before some sort of leak happens, usually the glue fails somewhere. Also, it's a real bugger to get the bowl off once you've glued it in place.
I'm telling you, i am *this* close to going the JB Weld route, just clean up the carb one last time, install a really good inline fuel filter, and seal up the bowl 'till Ragnarok. I'm sure JB will hold as I've used it to repair rusted-through fuel tanks on bikes.
But I reeeelly don't want to go that drastic if there's any way I can avoid it.
I think I need to start looking into gasket sheeting of different kinds. As you said, the 'red stuff' for the plumbers. It will probably not hold, as water and gasoline are two different animals, but i guess we'll see. I might start conducting experiments to test different materials for their gas-solvency and save some time on the constant carb removal/reinstallation.
Seriously, does ANYBODY have a 'been there, done that' answer for me? I can't imagine this problem has never been encountered before in a vintage motorcycle tribe. Nobody has had to make fuel-submersible gaskets for a vehicle for which they stopped making parts for, 30 years ago? -
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Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 6:26 PMHmmm...at this point, if I had the time, I would begin and exhaustive search on line of different manufactures of gasketing materials for chemical submersion. I mean, you figure there's got to be something to do that for say fuel trucks and gasoline storage. What material is used to seal in tank pumps and floats in cars/trucks? What about teflon? I know that there is an answer out there besides sealing it up forever which I'd hate to see you do. Shit, what about some of that lead sheeting used to make batteries in chemistry class? I'm going to keep brainstorming this one till there's a better answer than forever sealed.... -
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Unsu...
Re: Electrical or Carburetion?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 6:49 PMI'll do the legwork, i just need ideas.
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